Sustainability in Fashion: Article

And prior to that, I was working as a designer in the fashion industry. I was a knitwear designer. So I was designing jumpers and cardigans for high street brands, such as a source and Primark and I learned all of the backside of how you design and how those products are made and get put into the market. And actually it was when I lost my job in that industry, that it really got me thinking about what I wanted to do next. And do I really want to be part of this super unsustainable system. So in this sort of time of flux, having lost my job and not really knowing what to do, I decided that I wanted to make a change, and I wanted to start a business. I wasn’t really sure exactly what that was, but I wanted it to be sustainable. Along that line, I decided that I was going to use some savings; I was saving for a house, use my house deposit and go back to university and do a Masters, which I did at UAL. And that was on a course that was joined with the Centre for Circular Design. And while I was there, I was thinking about sustainable wool and thinking about making accessories and baby blankets and all of the ideas that I came up with. But actually I got totally hooked on recycling and understand what happens to all of these garments. What happened to the garments that I was designing when I was a designer, what would happen to the garments that I wanted to design for my business. And I went down a complete rabbit hole and never came out the other side where I got hooked on recycling. And I decided in the end that I was going to follow the recycling system. And I’m really disappointed if I’m completely honest, I thought it was rubbish I thought we could do way better. So I went about collecting, working with a local collection service to collect some jumpers. I then had those recycled, and then worked with another company that would spin it into yarn for me and I created a variety of products. And what it really taught me was that we can do this better, we just need to understand it a little bit better. And so that really led me on to ending up being a PhD researcher. And going into three years worth of research. I did have a year in the middle where I was doing some freelance work; And I was working for the Centre for Circular Design on some of their research projects, which really got me into the sense of how research works. That’s what I’ve been doing since and now I’m just about to come out the other side.

Muaz  

That’s amazing. I mean, to be fair, five years ago, I doubt many people knew much about sustainability. So you are probably well ahead of most people in your field.

Cathryn  

Yeah, it’s quite a young field in terms of sustainability and circular thinking, but when you track it back actually started in the 70s. So there have been people harping on about this for a long time, it’s just taken us a little while to catch up.

Muaz  

I guess it’s broadly that the knowledge wasn’t as distributed as it needed to be. I mean, it’s still not, the average person just does not even know what sustainability means. Because depending on who you talk to, there’s a completely different definition. And, in every aspect of the word, it’s almost like it’s this umbrella term, which people, I don’t want to use the term greenwash… But it’s one of those things that you could throw at pretty much anything as long as you’re hitting it partially from a particular angle, you can apply a badge that says that you’re sustainable. So it’s definitely an area that is quite confusing to me personally, and I’m sure to a number of people. And that’s why I think it’s a really valuable area to be doing research in. And it’s a really valuable area to be working in. Because, I mean, if you look at our environment, and where everything is going, if anything, we need a lot more people working in sustainability

Cathryn  

Yeah, I mean, I couldn’t agree more, I think it is really, really vital. And that is so much confusing information out there, especially for the consumer. But you have to remember that equally on the industry side. You know, the industry has been chugging along very unsustainably for a really long time, and things have been working really, really well. And then all of a sudden, people are going, Oh, no, hang on a minute, you need to change. And while perhaps they should have listened to that message a little bit earlier, it’s also very difficult for them to turn that ship around, as it were, if you imagine the industry as a huge tanker, and how long it takes for a huge tanker that’s going in one direction to change to another direction, it does take a long time to change such a massive thing. So actually, when we look at some of these examples that are coming out from brands, that’s kind of the small building steps that need to be happening in order to turn that huge ship round. Now, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be doing that quicker, and trying to do that as quickly as possible. Because as you pointed out, that the environment, climate change, all of the things that we’re hearing, the science scientists warning us about, it is really urgent, and it is really vital. But there are plenty of people like myself, I work at the Centre for Circular Design with some incredible people, my supervisors, Professor Becky Earley, and Dr. Kate Goldsworthy are two such people, but there are plenty of other people out there that are working at various different solutions. And what’s really important, I think, is that we have lots of people looking at this from lots of different angles. So while I come at it from a mechanical recycling perspective, we’ve got experts out there looking at chemical recycling, we’ll have people thinking about the materials, the processes, thinking about the consumer and how they’re using, and how they’re creating and using and buying products, as well as obviously, the recovery, which is where I kind of sit. But for the consumer, I think it is really, really, really confusing. And the more that we can educate ourselves as consumers, I mean, the other day, I started watching a programme on Netflix about soil, and I never thought I would need to know about soil, but actually, it’s really important, especially when it comes to textiles, because that we grow a lot of our textiles, you know, cotton is grown in soil. And therefore, actually, all of these areas are super connected. And that’s, I guess, a little bit what circular design is all about, it’s about a complete circle, all the way from beginning to end, making sure that all of those connections are made around the circle.

Muaz  

I guess, like some of the challenges, and these are conversations that we have with designers as well, when they tell you that creating a 1000 garments, right, is not sustainable for their business from a PnL point of view. That it is cheaper for them to make 10,000 than to make 1000, and at least from the business’s point of view, making those kinds of decisions is also where a lot of complexity comes in. Because do they raise the price? And then economics comes in with looking at the price elasticity, that the end customer will accept? So, and sometimes you have to think about, I guess, does it affect the quality of the end product? You know, or is the 10,000 manufactured at the same quality as the 1000 but cheaper. So, I guess there are all these fascinating questions that come out of sustainability, which is probably why it all becomes noise once it gets in front of the average consumer. I mean, it comes off as noise to me, and, and I have a relatively decent number of conversations around this. Because, you know, even talking to designers about the care instructions, that they need to add on their garments to make sure that, the end user knows how to appropriately take care of what they bought, because if if those are not super easy to understand, you’re basically just creating something that will get destroyed pretty quickly if it’s not take care of taken care of in the right way.

Cathryn  

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think the economics of things is really vital. It’s frustrating, but it is the way of the world as it is currently, that everything really does come back to the economics. We have to make sure that the solutions that we’re finding are economically viable, and that includes recycling solutions. Obviously, I talk about recycling, because that’s what I love, but it’s the same for all sustainable alternatives. As you rightly pointed out, that for businesses, it’s really key that, that they can’t make 1000 garments worth their while, so therefore they do 10,000. And is that being really unsustainable. I think that we need to really sort of step back, and I completely understand it from that kind of business point of view. But if we step back, and we think about what it is that we’re supplying our customers, we’ve got a whole host of new ideas in terms of new business models, whether that’s rental, whether that’s reuse, you know, for example, depop, where we can swap and reuse our materials. I think we as designers, because obviously I am a designer, I’m not an economic whiz, and understanding these things that actually that we need to think about what we do, what are we designing for? And who are we designing for? And realistically, how long are they going to hang on to that garment, there’s been some really amazing research that’s come out of the Centre for Circular Design. And this is not my research. This is the research of some of the team there, Professor Becky Earley, Kate Goldsworthy, Kay Politowicz. And they’ve been thinking about this kind of idea of speed. Circular design speeds is what they called their project. And thinking about how we design and whether we’re designing garments to be super, super slow. Because there’s absolutely no point as designing something that’s going to last for a really, really, really long time, if the customer is only wanting it for a short amount of time, we have to think about fashion trends and how they sort of move forward. And whether we can sort of escape those with classic design, also need to think about some of those garments that are going to be fast. What I really love is when I’ve been talking to students, and we’ve been thinking about rental models, I had a conversation the other day. And you know, rental seems like a really great solution that you can rent, you can give back, it can go to other people. But actually, when we’re thinking about it, from a design perspective, what garments are we designing for those types of models? And what’s going to work for those types of models? Can we design? Are we going to be designing a basic t-shirt for a rental model? Probably not. And are we going to be designing something that’s white, that’s stained super easily, that’s probably not appropriate either. So we need to think about how we’re designing, what we’re designing and who we’re designing for. And that’s probably the first thing that I would get anyone to think about when they’re trying to think about their business model and what they’re selling, and what they’re doing, is to think really carefully. Obviously, from a design perspective, you want to make sure the economics work out. But who are you designing for? What are you designing for? And is there another way that you can kind of look and change this problem by doing something slightly differently? 

Muaz  

So following on from that. So from the eyes and ears of an end consumer if they wanted to understand what they could do… So we’ve talked about it from a designer’s point of view, but from a consumers point of view. How could they look at this problem? Are there other particular misunderstandings that they need to keep in mind or, be cognizant of, and are there any particular actions that they can take?

Cathryn  

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. This is a question that I get all the time. And I think it really depends on your perspective, and where you are and who you are in the world. But I guess from an average person, if you’re like me, and you’re kind of confused by the noise, I would kind of suggest that there are two sort of options for you. So you obviously will have clothes and products and garments sort of within your house. And that’s great. And what I would advise is that you can extend the life of those garments properly. Think about if you don’t need something, then you can reuse it, can use some of those marketplaces that are out there. Can you give it to a friend? Can you extend the life? Can you give it to a charity shop where it can be sold on? Be responsible with the products that you currently own. Then, I’ll come back a little bit to that, because as a point that I’d really like to make about thinking about the products that we are, especially if people, and quite often I speak to people, and they say, Oh, well, you know, I really know I’ve got I’ve had this garment in my wardrobe for 20-30 years… and actually, sometimes we need to think as consumers, how often do you wear that garment that’s in your wardrobe for 20 or 30 years, it’s great that it’s been there, that’s fantastic. But have you bought another garment that you’re then actually wearing more but you only kept for a shorter amount of time. Is it so great that it’s been in your wardrobe for 20 or 30 years? So when you think about the products that you have, in your house, in your home, and how you’re using them and what you’re using them for, and making sure that you’re really utilising those products. If you do need to buy new and there is definitely a place for buying new, you will have to go and buy products, you want to support local businesses, you want to support crafts, crafts, people, artisans, all sorts of things. Buy well, is what I would suggest. I don’t want to sit here and pretend that I don’t buy new things. Of course I do. I have a pile of things that need repairing in my house that is making me feel very, very guilty. And actually, I was having a conversation with Professor Becky Earley, and I’m totally going to steal this from her. That she would like a service to be able to come and pick up her garments to be able to repair them for her. And that would be great, because I don’t have, at the moment I don’t have time, I wish I did. I love being creative. I’m a designer, of course. But we shouldn’t be feeling guilty that we don’t necessarily have time, you know, seek out the people that have those specialist skills. If you’re looking to set up a business, set up that business, figure out who in your area needs that kind of service and set that up. That’s brilliant. That’s fantastic. But when you’re buying brand new, think about who you’re buying from and what you’re buying. And there is no great way of getting past the greenwash, you can only do your best, but trying to buy as sustainably as possible is definitely key. And obviously, within your budget, I’m not expecting everyone to spend hundreds of 1000s of pounds. But again, as somebody that I used to work with say’s the poor man pays twice. So if you buy something that’s of shoddy quality, you’ll probably end up having to replace that more and more. So while some people can’t always afford that, and it really depends on your financial situation, thinking about the types of brands that you’re paying and going into. You do demonstrate, you sort of make a vote with your wallet in terms of what you’re choosing. So even if you’re going to a big brand, choosing their more sustainable line is only going to indicate to them that they should be doing more of that. If you can go to a smaller, more sustainable, slightly more expensive shop, you’re again voting with your wallet, that they’re doing a better thing and then they’re going to thrive. So really within your means you can really vote whether that’s the sustainable range, or the more sustainable product at Primark versus the very, very expensive luxury but sustainable brand; and they’re both as valid.

Muaz  

That personally makes a lot of sense to me as well. So like my favourite sweater, I’ve actually been wearing it for about eight years now. I’ve stitched these parts of the sleeve back myself, it’s gone from a process where I’m happy to wear it outside, from, for the last couple of years, well, I’m still very comfortable in it. So I’ll definitely wear it inside. But it has gone through that life cycle of being completely worn down. But I’ve got so attached to it that you know…

Cathryn  

Yeah, attachment is really key actually. I think your jumper probably is loving lock down where you’re not seeing that many people, it can be worn and worn and worn many many times. I think we all have products like that. And it’s really, really great to have those products that you become attached to, that attachment means you’re going to keep them longer, you’re not going to want to get rid of them. And that’s totally brilliant. But there are definitely things in my wardrobe that I don’t wear enough. And I know about this stuff. So yeah, it’s really thinking about how you wear your clothes, and then what best to do with them if you’re not wearing them effectively. Will somebody else benefit from that and can you think of that person, you know before just donating it to a charity shop which is definitely the right thing to be doing. Will a friend really like that? Quite often me and my friends used to be like oh, I’ve done a clearout and then they used to just come through and rummage through the stuff that I was getting rid off to see if they wanted it first before it got moved on. And as someone that’s super passionate about recycling, always make sure that when you’re having a clear out when you’re going through your stuff, this normally happens in the new year which we’ll be on us imminently as we come to the end of 2020. Thank goodness. That you separate the stuff that was really really good quality that you can give to a charity shop that really will be reused. And make sure that the stuff that isn’t such great quality, that probably does need to be recycled, also gets into the right place. So I always recommend that the good quality stuff goes to your local charity shop along your high street drop in, it’s a great place to go. And the not so great quality stuff, and I’m talking about your holey underpants, your holey socks, and that pair of tights that’s got a ladder in it, all the stuff that you would usually think about throwing in the bin, don’t throw it in the bin. Either give it to the charity shop in a separate bag and tell them that it’s for their recycling, because they can gain a little bit of money for their charity out of that, or one of those recycling bins that you see on the street. Equally, you can put good quality stuff into those recycling bins in the street. But I like to give it to the charity first as just an option that it could be sold on to somebody else. Also check out your local charity shops, there are some serious gems to be found.

Muaz  

Interestingly, you’re talking about how it ends up being more expensive for the person who doesn’t have the financial means. And one thing that is, I’ve seen a number of designers do this when they’re looking into or researching a collection or, or something like that, is when they go and look at products out in the street. And they’ve got an eye for quality differential. So you could be walking into a mall, and you’re basically going up the quality pyramid you know, you’re walking into a Top Shop, and then a Hugo Boss and then just working your way through. And a lot of people don’t understand what that differential is. So that education, I think is also missing. So what is completely obvious to a designer, just out of their nature, they’re so curious about the stitch, about the quality of, you know, of the cloth, of the material, how it’s put together. The average person does not realise that. So they just look at what something might look like in a photo. And say they look so alike, why don’t I go for the cheaper one, without realising that the one that might cost 10% more, might end up saving them 50% more over a period of two years. So it’s these kinds of things that are quite obvious, from my point of view. But it only became obvious from my point of view, once I started working with people in fashion, where they were like… yeah, I mean, doesn’t everyone do this? And I was like, No… no one does.

Cathryn  

I mean, absolutely. I think I was very lucky. My mom was a designer, and has worked in fashion, and then I grew up and that’s the trade that I went into. So I was always, you know, my mom always said, Oh, no, that’s not very quality, you can tell by this. And I kind of got taught that. But I have got many, many friends who cannot tell. And again, I find it really obvious, but actually, what’s interesting is it isn’t always price that it takes quality, not all the time. I mean, it’s a good guide, you know, if you’re paying more for something, you expect it to be better quality. But that isn’t always the case. You know, you also are paying and buying into lifestyle, and, you know, certain branding, that certain ideals. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all, you know, there might be a certain brand that you absolutely love, because you love the way that they’ve designed it and you’re paying for that design. And that’s and that’s brilliant. And that’s great. And you should be you know, someone that spent a long time thinking about how that garment was designed. I mean, even to the level of kind of high street really fast fashion, someone sat there and decided what it was going to look like. And you know, that’s completely valid, those kind of skills, of understanding quality, I think have to be developed over time. My only recommendation is if you’re trying to understand quality, just go and have a look through your wardrobe. Have a look at the clothes that you’ve got. Have a think about the things that didn’t last very long and why didn’t they last very long. And you will just slowly come to understand and you’ll notice as you look for things, and if for example you were shopping for, I don’t know, a jumper and you see a sort of cheap jumper and then you sort of see a mid range jumper and then you go to another shop and you see a really expensive jumper, try and establish what the differences are. Why is the really expensive one so, so expensive? Is it because it’s beautifully designed? Is it because it is amazing? Is it the materials? Is it the way that it’s being constructed? Look at the care label, look and see what the materials are that have been used in those garments, and natural materials don’t always necessarily mean that it’s better. There’s this big misconception that natural materials are the way forward, they’re not bad. Sustainability and circularity is really trying to find a balance between all of the things and the resources that we’re using. Controversially, I think polyester is an amazing, an amazing material, and can be so useful. It’s just it’s not being used very well and not being designed with appropriately. And I think that’s the key, that we’ve had this sort of, all of these materials at our fingertips for so long when we haven’t really had to think about the environment. And we’ve been using them in all sorts of creative ways. And that’s fantastic. It’s really great to see people being creative and creating beautiful garments and exciting designs. But now we really need to start thinking about the impacts of what we’re doing or what we have been doing. And we’ve, over the last 5, 10, 20 years, people have sort of started to wake up to this fact. And so it’s not just about natural materials. It’s not just about natural dyes. They come with their own problems and their own impacts. It’s about really understanding that the way that we’ve designed products so that the customer can buy them and use them really, really well. 

Muaz  

Which actually leads us on really well to when it comes to understanding these things, are there any guidelines or resources that, you know, because I guess when it comes to the internet, people can put anything out there. Right? So are there any useful guides or useful resources that you have found useful when it comes to these kinds of things?

Cathryn  

Yeah, I mean, I think, obviously, I’m coming at it from a design point of view. But I think this will be useful for the consumer as well, even if you’re not a designer, and you just want to really understand a little bit more about the impacts, there are plenty of things out there. The first thing that I would say, which is a very general resource is the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. Also known as EMF, they have a huge resource of information, if you go onto their website, they’ve got a circular design guide, they’ve got reports. And if you’re interested in textiles, or fashion, the new textile economy, which came out in 2017, is a long read… but there is a great summary, which is much shorter, which is much easier to digest. So yeah, I would definitely recommend that you check those out. I obviously am a part of the Centre for Circular Design. So I would highly recommend that you have a look at the things that we’ve been doing. I’m slightly biassed, of course, but there’s an amazing resource that over 10 years ago, the researchers way before I even knew what sustainability was, they started thinking about how designers could be more sustainable, and they came up with these 10 strategies. Now at the time, the Centre for Circular Design was called Textile, Environmental Design, or TED. And then of course, Ted Talks, totally stole it. So it’s not TED Talks, we’re nothing to do with that TED, but it was called TED. And so therefore called TEDs 10. And so these TEDs 10 were 10 design strategies, and it really takes you over a broad landscape of sustainable design and lots of the problems. And there are actually some really great, slightly older animations that go with all of those. So again, really great for any aspiring designers, people that are doing design as students, whether you’re working in the industry, also really great to look at, as well as the consumer to have a look and see some of those impacts from those problems. But yeah, they are probably the best places to start. Obviously, Google is your friend, and see what other information, there are plenty of other places out there and centres that you can look into.

Muaz  

That’s amazing. That’s one of the things that adds to the noise, where, you know, not only trying to find the right information, but trusting the information, and then digesting that information and appropriately applying that information. So it’s, it’s all these steps of trying to make that easily digestible and, accessible, I guess, is part of the challenge. But as well, you know, the consumer does need to take steps to tackle this, they can’t be force fed. So there needs to be actionable steps, from the consumers point of view, to want to wear the right thing, to be able to wear in the right way. You know, that they are net positive when it comes to things like sustainability. Because if you don’t care about that stuff, you’re not going to care about that stuff. I guess there are all sorts of challenges around that. But I find that there are certain things which could be quite obvious because if you see a pair of shoes for six pounds, you know, something like that… How sustainable is that? Yeah, and I realise price… There are times when price isn’t a good benchmark, because you could find stuff that’s really good quality that is at a relatively cheap price. But then there are other warning signs that come out, and there needs to be some investigation, at the very least questions need to be asked if something is cheap. Is this too good to be true? Should I buy this? At the very least you owe yourself that, you know, okay, I do want to buy this pair of boots for six pounds. But at least I owe it to at least investigate. Or at least do a basic Google search as to why this pair of shoes is for six pounds.

Cathryn  

I mean, I think it’s really important that the consumer is asking questions, and you’re so right. Is it too good to be true? Quite often, the reason why our garments and products are so cheap. I’m currently in Denmark and or between Denmark and the UK, it’s that lots of our products are made in areas where labour is much cheaper. And we should be asking those questions because circular and sustainable design is not just about thinking about the materials, thinking about the way that they’ve been constructed and how the customers are using them, and then how they’re recovered. It’s also about the people that are involved. And there’s sort of this kind of from both sides that you need the consumer asking the questions, and really thinking about the choices that they’re making. But it’s also vital that the industry is also investigating and making sure that their practices are okay. And I’m not going to definitely say for sure that a six pound pair of shoes has got to be unsustainable, it’s really terrible and it’s awful. There might be a really good reason why there is a six pound pair of shoes, you know, in terms of the material was left over and it had been a massive order. And therefore it could be turned into the materials that way. But in order for us to be completely sustainable, we want to be making sure that we’re paying the people that are making our clothes, you know, a wage, they’ve got the safe working conditions. And quite often, that’s the part that is so difficult to control. Because when wages go up, people tend to look for other areas that they can produce clothes, because we’re demanding things that are so cheap. So while I do talk about those people that can’t necessarily afford to be buying really expensive clothes, I think we’ve got this sort of, our prices have been pushed down so far, that we’ve all sort of accepted that, that they’re this cheap, and actually, they need to be creeping back up, and it needs to start getting a little bit more expensive. Do we really need to be able to buy a pair of shoes for six pounds, every single one of us. I know, in the past, I bought super cheap shoes. And actually, I wouldn’t classify myself at all, as somebody that couldn’t afford to buy something slightly more expensive. But I still have bought into that because it’s there and I got used to that mindset that it is really cheap. So I think it’s very important that you have both, I guess it’s almost like four directions; you’ve got making sure that the people in the system are looked after. And that can be helped and changed by policy and government and getting those kind of bigger people involved with sort of the industry in the middle. And then you’ve got the consumer, as well as the, you know, the companies that are producing these, the companies need to push down and be creating the change because they’re in charge of all these systems, but the consumer needs to be pushing up asking questions and voting with their wallets. And so that we can kind of change the industry overall.

Muaz  

Because it’s kind of scary, when you think about it that if they’re conditions you want to accept for yourself, why would you enforce those conditions on other people by your purchasing decisions? So again, you know, there could be a reason for a six pound pair of shoes. But if it being six pounds means someone in Bangladesh or you know, or somewhere else in Southeast Asia or in parts of Africa is being paid, you know, six pounds a month, just to be able to get those shoes over to you. Is that something you want on your conscience? It’s this kind of self reflection that is something that is more broadly needed. And absolutely right, it’s on both sides, both the industry, but also the consumer, you know, and actually three sides and government, you know, there needs to be policy as well that shapes around this. And that’s when you start thinking about all of the complexity, but it needs to start somewhere.

Cathryn  

It does need to start somewhere. And it is really complex. You know, I mean, when you start thinking about what can the government do and changing policy, that takes time. They need to understand what the best policy is. But there was actually a really great example about how, I can’t remember exactly what it was. But the government brought in a policy that actually made the situation worse. So while people scramble and say, oh, well, if the government just banned this and did this, actually, it’s very key that they do, they bring in the right policy, so that the brands then comply to certain regulations, whatever they may be. We’ve got the example of extended producer responsibility, this is the case in France, where on every garment, there’s a tax, or every product there’s a tax, something like a cent or a penny, and all of that money comes together in order to try and find solutions. And that’s only one approach. There’s actually lots of different approaches that could be. And in order for a government to bring that in, you want to make sure that you’ve got everything in place for that to happen. But yeah, what you don’t want to do is make the situation worse. I mean, in this instance, it probably wouldn’t, but you want to make sure that that money is going to go into the right investments. Equally, you need the industry to be changing systems, just because they add one penny onto the end of garments doesn’t mean that their responsibility is diminished. And that’s it, well, great, we’ve got this policy, now it’s going to solve our problem. And equally, the customer needs to really be thinking about what they’re paying into. Are the companies actually doing anything to do any change? I think it’s very easy to sort of demonise, particularly the bigger companies, fast fashion companies that really are trying to turn things around and saying, oh, they’re not doing this good enough. But actually, there are lots of companies that they’re not doing anything. And so we sort of focus on the fast fashion ones, because it’s easy, because they’re producing a lot. But people are buying this stuff. And, you know, we need to be changing people’s mindsets, as well. And as I said before about that sort of ship and turning things around. And you know, it takes, it does take time. And I don’t want to sort of give them excuses, it does. It needs to be quicker, and we need to speed up. But it’s really difficult.

Muaz  

And it is tricky. Because if you think about it, if a government comes out and says that, you know, we’re gonna tax you for this, the messaging, and the clarity has to be key, and it needs to be done in a way that, you know, is not only accurate, but makes people understand why you’re doing this, because the last thing you want is people saying how dare you take my six pound shoes away from me and vote you out. You know, because even though you have their best interest at heart, and you know it’s going to be net positive for the economy and will feed back to the end user and it will be positive, there will be a positive feedback loop. You know, so getting all this right, also adds to how you’re talking about the tanker, you know, of making sure that not only is it turning in the right direction, but the speed at which you’re turning, and making sure everyone agrees that you’re turning in the right direction. And the way you’re handling that and the messaging so. So yeah…

Cathryn  

I mean, absolutely, I think as a final kind of point to kind of round this up is that there is no point turning your tanker, your ship tanker around if the ship then sinks. What was the point in turning that round in the first place? So yeah, I mean, it’s the jobs and the people that are reliant on some of these big companies for the wages. And that includes, you know, the factory workers in Bangladesh, and you know, across Asia, and all sorts of places in Africa, and various places are reliant on some of these big companies for orders. And that’s a responsibility that the company has, and needs to take seriously and making sure that there are good working conditions, and there are fair wages, definitely more work needs to be done. But it’s in order for us to get all of this product. So we need to be thinking as consumers do. We need to be buying all of the things? We want to be making sure that these people stay in a job. But equally, if they’re turning it around or becoming more sustainable. You hear these, you know, people that are questioning these brands, and they should be questioning them. But boycotting and completely dismantling those big companies has a huge impact. So it is way more complicated than people think, we can’t just go well, they all need to close down and you know, be done with them. Then you know what’s happening to all of those people in all of these jobs all over the place. You want to make sure that when we do turn it round that we turn it round, and it’s going to be really good.

Muaz  

Absolutely. You don’t want to flip the tanker and spill the oil in the ocean.

Well, thank you that was an amazing session and I learned a lot and I’m sure a lot of people who are going to listen to this are going to learn a lot from this session as well. 

You can find Cathryn online at:

• Website: https://www.annekatextiles.co.uk/
• Instagram: @anneka.textiles

Some of the references discussed during the episode:

CCD:

• https://circulardesign.org.uk/research/ten/
• http://mistrafuturefashion.com/
• https://www.trash2cashproject.eu/

Textile Recycling

• www.annekatextiles.co.uk/resources

EMF:

• https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/publications
• https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/resources/learn/circular-design-toolkit
• https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/explorehttps://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/explore

You can listen to the whole interview podcast over on our podcast page or by clicking here at Sustainability in Fashion.